krossero

Date: 2009-01-28 06:37 pm (UTC)

no subject

After seeing Deep Water a dozen times?

Gay America, every time :-)

Some repeated things annoy me but I try to remember that for the writer they don't always know they're not the first to do it.

'Obfuscation' and 'Blessed Protector' generally bug me and so does 'Blair Jacob Sandburg'. The first two got mentioned ONCE in passing and they're done to death, and Blair in canon, has no middle name, so why invent a fanon one?

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 06:41 pm (UTC)

no subject

You know, I read the fanfiction before I ever watched the show, so I was surprised about a few things, like the Blessed Protector and obfuscation like you mentioned. I expected to see them more than once. Hee! I loved Deep Water! Oh, and I didn't know that Blair's middle name was a strictly fanon thing. (I haven't seen all the shows) *scuttling off to check my fanfics to see if I've ever used it* 0-0

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 06:58 pm (UTC)

no subject

Nope, just the once, in passing ::sigh:; And Blair never, ever, ever in canon called Jim 'Big Guy'. 'Little buddy', yes, he did that once.

I read that 'Jacob' got invented for a fic way back when and it stuck; same as 'Brian' as Rafe's first name; pure fanon.

If you use it, no one but grumpies like me will care, though, don't worry :;g::

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 07:30 pm (UTC)

no subject

>-< I had no clue about the Brian thing, either. Jeez. But considering that I was into the fandom first, I'll probably end up using more from that than the episodes than I realized. Although, for me, that's okay, because I really do love the fandom! Sorry if it bugs you...*grins unashamedly* LOL

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 07:38 pm (UTC)

It doesn't bother me when you know the history

*g* In this case, it started with the episode, Cypher. When Jim walks in on Blair and Christine, Christine leaves, and Blair tells Jim about how his lovemaking was interrupted by flashbacks to the dead body. Jim then leans against the pole, legs crossed, tight tee shirt, tight jeans, WHITE socks, and lectures Blair about emotions and cops. In that moment, for many of us, he was the poster boy for gay men in a straight job. For a few others, he was the poster boy for straight men. There are several other scenes throughout the series where Jim could be perceived as the very typical gay man in a straight job. Hence, naturally, you see that phrase often in fiction.

We have over a decade of fiction, so yeah, it's natural to come across that phrase fairly often. :) Especially when you go on a reading jag! LOL!

For me, there were periods of fiction time in TS when other phrases, having nothing to do with the show, that bugged me. Like:

"caught like a deer in headlights" (way too often used)
and Jim "carding his fingers through Blair's curls"

It was obvious someone wanted to avoid "Running his fingers through...." so they came up with 'carded' and everyone else picked it up. ::shivers::

Okay, time to scuttle off....

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 07:43 pm (UTC)

I understand both 'obfuscation' and

'Blessed Protector' - mostly because obfuscation became a signature of Blair's character (but always for good reasons) and caused many a discussion about what was true and false about him based on things he divulged. BUT I get why the word itself tended to be annoying eventually - especially when there are other synonyms. BUT - it was a word used that defined him, so reading immediately brought back the voices and the scene, thus allowing the reader to 'see it again' but under new circumstances.

Blessed Protector has a very special connotation and one rarely if ever used in other shows, so this was embraced wholeheartedly. Once you've said it - well, Jim was stuck with it. And his actions only cemented his intentions. :) But again, we could have come up alternate ways of saying it without using those words. In the defense of authors, though, it again immediately brings forth that warm memory.

Final comment: We don't know if he has a middle name or not, so when one author came up with Jacob - it was never taken as canon, but rather an embraced fanon. Other authors loved that name, thought it fit, and adopted it. I admit to loving it and using it in some stories. He LOOKS like a "Blair Jacob Sandburg" to me. :)

Again, what we have to remember that in the moment of the show, this didn't stand out - it's only later, with new folks coming in and having tons of fiction to get through, that seeing these repeated items read closely together - does it really bug. :)

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 07:44 pm (UTC)

"Big Guy"

DOES have a history though. Two writers (Nightowl being one of them), aftr hearing Joel being called "Big Guy" thought it was a natural that Blair would pick it up and use it for Jim, so that's what they did in a story. Others at the time and who knew the origins, embraced it and agreed that it was likely Blair would do something like that.

Unfortunately, new folks come in, don't know the history, and many start writing before seeing the show, so make certain assumptions about fanon versus canon.

Not much we can do about that - but through efforts like these to educate about the origins and allow writers to then decide if they agree and use it or not. I never really did - I figured he'd come up with other terms that would be similar! LOL! He, with his gift for gab! LOL!

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 07:53 pm (UTC)

Re: I understand both 'obfuscation' and

Well, the post asked what bugged people and that's what bugs me :-) If people want to use them in their fics, I'd never tell them not to in feedback; their choice and 90% of readers wouldn't notice or care -- or might like seeing them; mileage varies -- but if I was betaing a fic I'd probably point out that the first two are over-used and 'Jacob' is fanon, and let the author make up her own mind.

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 08:00 pm (UTC)

Re: "Big Guy"

I have a single file of all the transcripts and searched it for 'big guy' a year or so back just to make sure Blair never used it. Jim says it to Joel once and there are a few random mentions by secondary characters. When I see it capitalized and used every few sentences in some fics the editor in me groans.

I love the canonical 'little buddy' of The Debt (Blair to Jim) and that's rarely seen in fic, which baffles me. I wouldn't want it used all the time either, but at least it's a canonical nickname.

But I want to stress again that this is my own personal take on it; I'm not trying to enforce a ban on fanon favourites ::g::

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 08:13 pm (UTC)

Re: I understand both 'obfuscation' and

What about the idea of the gang at MC betting on when Jim and Blair get together? I've seen that in a bunch of fics. Anyone know where it got started, and what do you think about its repeated use? For me, I don't mind seeing it again if it's written well. I love the idea that they'd be so accepting of the boys' relationship. :)

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 08:19 pm (UTC)

Re: I understand both 'obfuscation' and

I've seen it a lot but I don't know how it started; I've only been in the fandom 2 and a half years; still a newbie :-)

From:

cross-stitchery.livejournal.com

no subject

1. gay, or straight, i don't care. just get that man on a poster STAT! <g> preferably naked.

2. there's a lot of TS fic out there so some themes are bound to come up over and over again. it generally doesn't bug me too much unless i think it's bad writing. (although i do think the whole Blessed Protector thing is waaaay over used)

3. as an example of #2... there was for a while a lot of fics where, after Jim and Blair had kissed for the first time, or otherwise made their (romantic) feelings plain, the writer would then insert a phrase along the lines of "his soon-to-be lover" or "his almost lover" which really irritated me. because 1. totally unnecessary (i don't need to be told they'll soon be bonking like bunnies, it's a foregone conclusion) and 2. clunky phrasing. i honestly doubt that anyone in the real world has ever thought of someone as being their "soon-to-be lover"...

it also pissed me off because it seems like the writer's implying that only the act of penetration makes someone a lover. if the guys have by action or word shown that they love each other then in my mind, that makes them lovers regardless of whether they've had sex or not. otoh, even if they've had sex, they still (for various reasons) might not feel that they're lovers.

Date: 2009-01-28 08:23 pm (UTC)

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 08:28 pm (UTC)

Re: I understand both 'obfuscation' and

Ha! You're still a newbie--I've only been here for a few months! 0_0

From:

Date: 2009-01-28 08:43 pm (UTC)

no subject

1. hee! we should start a committee working on that...*g*

2. I agree, if the writing's good, for the most part, the fact that something's been used before can be overlooked.

3. good point. I've noticed that quite a few times, myself. The lines tend to get blurry on the ubject, don't they? Same thing for whether or not someone's a virgin.

From:

aprilvalentine.livejournal.com

no subject

I find that "big guy" or, worse, "Big Guy" really bothers me. There are so many other things Blair can call Jim and since it's never used in canon, I find it just a really lazy way to write them. It doesn't make me think a whole story is bad or anything if I'm reading along, but if someone sends me a story for a zine, and it's in there, I sort of insist they think of something to replace it.

I can see Jim as a poster boy (man?) for a gay man in a straight job. However, when Blair says to him in "Cypher" that he's "clearly labeled 'cop'" it seems to indicate otherwise (at least to Blair). It can be an over-used phrase to say Jim's a poster boy for anything, even for the Rangers.

I don't care for the expression "his very male lover/roommate" -- unless the character has had lovers or roommates who weren't completely male, which they haven't canonically. It's like modifying the word "unique" -- you can't do that since if it's unique, there isn't anything that can be "more unique" than that thing, or that something can be "very unique" for that matter. I know what "very male" is supposed to mean, but again, the writer could stand to think a little more before using that type of expression which is so often over-used and doesn't really say what they are trying to indicate.

Recently, I've started to get a bit bothered by Caroline being referred to as "Caro" -- huh? Where did this come from? It must just be fanon because nobody refers to her as "Caro" in the episodes, or by any other nickname. Come on, use her whole name, writers, it doesn't take that much more to type the whole word. She's not a type of syrup.

And for me, I don't care for the MC group "betting" on when Jim and Blair would become lovers. It's just too "everybody's gay" for me. Do het partners have their co-workers betting on when they'll have sex? I doubt it. Unless everybody is totally cool with everybody being non-hetero, I guess I could see it, but the real world isn't that accepting and even if everybody is accepting, I think at least someone in MC would be saying "it's none of our business" or "Jim would kill you if he knew you were placing bets." I feel the same about characters trying to get the two OTP characters into bed together. Just a cliched type of plot to me.

I don't mind "Blair Jacob Sandburg" -- I know Blair wasn't given a canonical middle name but if the author wants to use one, I see no reason not to use the accepted fanon one. Or to make one up, either.

Cool discussion!

Date: 2009-01-28 09:21 pm (UTC)

From:

Date: 2009-01-29 01:37 am (UTC)

no subject

I agree that the whole betting thing probably wouldn't happen in real life, unless it was maybe between two friends who thought the guys should get together, or something like that. If I was reading it in a serious story, I wouldn't believe it for a minute. But when it's in something light 'n fluffy, I think it's fun.

And heck, yeah this is a cool discussion--there've been way more responses than I expected. It's brought up another question--what does eveyone think about the capitalization of sentinel/guide?

From:

Date: 2009-01-29 01:41 am (UTC)

Re: "Big Guy"

Oh, I agree - I was just giving the history and explaining that once folks read something they like, they're going to borrow it and then you start reading everything and there it is, seemingly over and over again. :)

From:

Date: 2009-01-29 02:03 am (UTC)

Re: I understand both 'obfuscation' and

Sorry, again, we seem to have crossed wires *g* - I was just explaining to a newbie some of the history. I'm not saying yay or nay to any of it (except my own like of Jacob *g*) - I'm just giving history. :)

From:

Date: 2009-01-29 02:35 am (UTC)

Re: I understand both 'obfuscation' and

No, it's okay ::hugs:: Just didn't want to come across as bossy and wanted to stress it's my personal bugginess :-))

From:

Date: 2009-01-29 02:43 am (UTC)

no subject

In the official script 'Sentinel' is capitalized and I do it that way sometimes, sometimes not...you wouldn't use a capital letter for 'soldier' or 'cop' after all. 'Guide' with a capital letter I don't use as I'm not wedded to the idea of 'guide' being as much a defined role as a sentinel. I do enjoy fics, usually futuristic, where it's accepted that Sentinels and Guides are genetically special, and it's okay there, but I can't see canon Jim in his head thinking of Blair as 'my Guide'.

'Shaman' is more likely; it's what Jim called Incacha and it's how Blair referred to himself. Brackett's the only one who (obliquely) put that label on Blair.

From:

j-amanda.livejournal.com

no subject

#1 -- In most eps, I think Jim is poster boy for straight. Deep Water is the obvious exception. In that one I think they tried too hard to make him seem tough that he came across as a caricature.

#2 -- I am increasingly annoyed by emphasis on The Guide and His Sentinel (or vice versa.) I prefer to think of Jim and Blair as people, individuals, with self-determination, not mystically predestined to be together. Where's the fun in that? Plus, the term guide was used once, maybe twice? From the way it's tossed around in fanfiction, I would have thought it had a MUCH bigger basis in canon.

#3 -- Oodles of stuff is overused in fanfiction and drives me nuts, but just as much crap is overused and I love it! It's all subjective. Luckily, we get a broad range of fiction to choose from.

Date: 2009-01-29 03:02 am (UTC)

From:

sarituss.livejournal.com

annoying females

#1: I can understand if people that don't read slash is all for the straight poster boy, but I like my boys bent... *lol* xD
So I have to say poster boy for gay America!

#2: I read mostly slash (surprise, surprise!), so I can get really irritated by all these females that just pop up from nowhere and tries to split up the boys for whatever reason.
It's irritating when people change the people that work at MC. I like the MC just the way it is, with Rafe, H, Joel, Rondah (aaah, spelling?), Simon and later Megan.

#3: I have nothing against stuff like "blessed protector" and stuff like that. I'm more concerned over the plots and the gang at MC. And all those females... *sigh* ;P

Date: 2009-01-29 03:14 am (UTC)

From:

Date: 2009-01-29 03:18 am (UTC)

no subject

1. There're a few things that they pushed a bit too much, or completely didn't notice, that we fangirls see easily. (Then squee! and giggle about) Ex: In 'Cypher' I think: Blair asks Jim if he was telling the truth when he said that Blair 'did everything right last night'...0-0
2. Yeah, I was also surprised that it wasn't really used much in canon.
3. I agree! I really do love some of the stuff that's used a lot... *g*

From:

Date: 2009-01-29 03:49 am (UTC)

Re: annoying females

1. Me too! *g*
2. (spelling = Rhonda (: ) I agree about the females; if they're there at all, it should be to drop a hint or two on top of the boys' heads! lol
3. Only a couple of things like that bug me, I was just wondering for my writing and out of curiosity what other people think. Hee--I think we're of quite the same mindset, you and I. ;)

From:

sarituss.livejournal.com

Re: annoying females

1. *high five*
2. (aaaaaah!! I'm so not good at spelling... *sigh* ;P )
I agree... females nearby = run towards each other instead.
3. Well, I think that small stuff like middle names and such is just too small for me to even care about. I just want to read a well written and flowing text with a good plot and as few females as possible... xD
I like when the boys go all possessive about each other.. *drool*

Hmm, great idea.. to check us out.. Me like! ;P

Yeah, I think we are.
"Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship."

Date: 2009-01-29 04:18 am (UTC)

From: